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		<title>By: Houhui</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/08/more-debate-about-the-validity-of-economic-data/comment-page-1/#comment-2991</link>
		<dc:creator>Houhui</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 17:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>1fine day

I think Pettis has made the point that this is a simplification before (sorry i cant give you the exact date of posting). I think he takes the US as a hyper deficit country, and China as a hyper surplus example to make the theory easier to understand. Of course there are other surplus countries / deficit countries. Generally deficit countries will be consuming less though, so i think that the argument can stand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1fine day</p>
<p>I think Pettis has made the point that this is a simplification before (sorry i cant give you the exact date of posting). I think he takes the US as a hyper deficit country, and China as a hyper surplus example to make the theory easier to understand. Of course there are other surplus countries / deficit countries. Generally deficit countries will be consuming less though, so i think that the argument can stand.</p>
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		<title>By: 1fineday</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/08/more-debate-about-the-validity-of-economic-data/comment-page-1/#comment-2791</link>
		<dc:creator>1fineday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 07:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=937#comment-2791</guid>
		<description>Whilst I agree with Michael&#039;s view in general, there are however many instances where I found him to have made this assumption that there is a linear relationship between trade balances between China and the USA. Why would and why should it be this linear if and when the US consumption drops, the Chinese trade surplus would have to drop correspondingly? 

Surely there is a difference in terms of degree and scale between the drop in one and the drop in the other? 

China&#039;s trade surplus is a sum result of her trades with many and not just one partner (USA). Other equally large trading partner such as EU matters just as much, and in this regard, unless the EU and the USA and the rest of the trading partners are working in concert and are acting-reacting with the same policy response, the conclusion based on this linear, one-on-one, static relationship in my view is questionable.

In my view, the sum net difference between China and her various trading partner is what matter most to China in the trade surplus/deficit bottom line, and it&#039;s a relationship between China vs many and not just USA alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whilst I agree with Michael&#8217;s view in general, there are however many instances where I found him to have made this assumption that there is a linear relationship between trade balances between China and the USA. Why would and why should it be this linear if and when the US consumption drops, the Chinese trade surplus would have to drop correspondingly? </p>
<p>Surely there is a difference in terms of degree and scale between the drop in one and the drop in the other? </p>
<p>China&#8217;s trade surplus is a sum result of her trades with many and not just one partner (USA). Other equally large trading partner such as EU matters just as much, and in this regard, unless the EU and the USA and the rest of the trading partners are working in concert and are acting-reacting with the same policy response, the conclusion based on this linear, one-on-one, static relationship in my view is questionable.</p>
<p>In my view, the sum net difference between China and her various trading partner is what matter most to China in the trade surplus/deficit bottom line, and it&#8217;s a relationship between China vs many and not just USA alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Armando</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/08/more-debate-about-the-validity-of-economic-data/comment-page-1/#comment-2781</link>
		<dc:creator>Armando</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 18:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=937#comment-2781</guid>
		<description>John Ross is trying to discredit the &quot;Saving Glut Theory&quot; that was put forward by Ben Bernanke http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2005/200503102/

That excess saving in Asia lead to excess purchase of American debt...

In other word, the entire crisis was caused by the Asian countries for buying excess American debt that lead to lower interest rate in the USA. The lower interest translated into cheaper borrowing in which people borrowed greatly to massively speculate in the dot.com, housing boom and natural resources (Barrel of oil peak price $150) and every bubble inflated by cheap money would eventually blow and that is what had just happened in the last several years!

Solution would be that Asian economy stop purchasing American debt and use it to purchase other thing or invest in their respective countries! China, Japan and the oil producing nations are moving into short term debt that has one or two year maturity, thus, the Fed need to massively purchase the long term debt to keep their interest lower and at the same time, China and other countries that held long term debt start to sell their long term debt to the fed and in turn use it to purchase short term debt. The way I see that China and other countries are moving away from long term debt into short term asset for better liquidity.
Here is the link:http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/07/17/may-tic-data-still-buying-us-assets-but-just-the-liquid-ones/

The entire &quot;Saving Glut Theory&quot; and their supporter is to exonerate the Federal reserve responsibility of the current crisis! It was a crisis created by Alan Greenspan for his loose monetary policy in which he lower the interest rate to 1% for an entire year after the 9/11 attack in order to stimulate the falling economy that was caused by the dot.com bust and of course the terrorist attack! These easy money were used to inflated the real state bubble and now everyone is suffering for it!!!

The next bubble would the Dollar bubble if the Federal reserve keep printing money and buying the long term treasury bills!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Ross is trying to discredit the &#8220;Saving Glut Theory&#8221; that was put forward by Ben Bernanke <a href="http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2005/200503102/" rel="nofollow">http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2005/200503102/</a></p>
<p>That excess saving in Asia lead to excess purchase of American debt&#8230;</p>
<p>In other word, the entire crisis was caused by the Asian countries for buying excess American debt that lead to lower interest rate in the USA. The lower interest translated into cheaper borrowing in which people borrowed greatly to massively speculate in the dot.com, housing boom and natural resources (Barrel of oil peak price $150) and every bubble inflated by cheap money would eventually blow and that is what had just happened in the last several years!</p>
<p>Solution would be that Asian economy stop purchasing American debt and use it to purchase other thing or invest in their respective countries! China, Japan and the oil producing nations are moving into short term debt that has one or two year maturity, thus, the Fed need to massively purchase the long term debt to keep their interest lower and at the same time, China and other countries that held long term debt start to sell their long term debt to the fed and in turn use it to purchase short term debt. The way I see that China and other countries are moving away from long term debt into short term asset for better liquidity.<br />
Here is the link:http://blogs.cfr.org/setser/2009/07/17/may-tic-data-still-buying-us-assets-but-just-the-liquid-ones/</p>
<p>The entire &#8220;Saving Glut Theory&#8221; and their supporter is to exonerate the Federal reserve responsibility of the current crisis! It was a crisis created by Alan Greenspan for his loose monetary policy in which he lower the interest rate to 1% for an entire year after the 9/11 attack in order to stimulate the falling economy that was caused by the dot.com bust and of course the terrorist attack! These easy money were used to inflated the real state bubble and now everyone is suffering for it!!!</p>
<p>The next bubble would the Dollar bubble if the Federal reserve keep printing money and buying the long term treasury bills!</p>
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		<title>By: TR</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/08/more-debate-about-the-validity-of-economic-data/comment-page-1/#comment-2759</link>
		<dc:creator>TR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 04:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ross, I am afraid you will never get past your fairly rigid and conventional model to understand balance sheets.  And you confuse accounting identities with prescriptive models, a very common mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.  Also I think Pettis is right to focus on private US consumption.  A temporary jump in fiscal consumption to counteract the effect of the crisis cannot be a growth generator for China.  This seems very obvious to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ross, I am afraid you will never get past your fairly rigid and conventional model to understand balance sheets.  And you confuse accounting identities with prescriptive models, a very common mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.  Also I think Pettis is right to focus on private US consumption.  A temporary jump in fiscal consumption to counteract the effect of the crisis cannot be a growth generator for China.  This seems very obvious to me.</p>
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		<title>By: PMJ</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/08/more-debate-about-the-validity-of-economic-data/comment-page-1/#comment-2758</link>
		<dc:creator>PMJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 04:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>ha ha ross you really are stalking pettis, even on the pages of the FT (although i see you can only get in a letter).  do you really think he&#039;s ging to make you credible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ha ha ross you really are stalking pettis, even on the pages of the FT (although i see you can only get in a letter).  do you really think he&#8217;s ging to make you credible?</p>
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		<title>By: John Ross</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/08/more-debate-about-the-validity-of-economic-data/comment-page-1/#comment-2751</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 21:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=937#comment-2751</guid>
		<description>I am afraid Michael Pettis confuses domestic demand (which is the sum of domestic consumption plus investment) with domestic consumption – which is not the same thing. He therefore writes things which are not economically correct with the result that he comes to wrong conclusions. Specifically he writes above.
1. ‘the trade surplus reflects the gap between what a country produces and what it consumes’. This is not true. The trade surplus (more correctly the balance of payments surplus but that is a side  issue) reflects the gap between what a country produces and what it consumes plus what it invests – that is Professor Pettis leaves out investment (which in China accounts for over 40% of GDP). Similarly the statement ‘as the leading trade deficit country, policies in the US that affect the gap between consumption and production will also determine the size of the US trade deficit’ is also not true. It is the gap between consumption plus investment, that is domestic demand, and production that will determine the size of the US trade deficit.
2.Michael Pettis writes: ‘Rising savings in one part of the world, even assuming no change in global investment, requires declining savings somewhere else.’ This is not true – and is confused. It is entirely possible for world saving as a whole to rise – in which case world investment will also rise.   What I think Michael Pettis may be attempting to say is that an increase in the positive international transfer of savings (that is a balance of payments surplus) which occurs in one country must be met by an equivalent balance of payments deficit in the rest of the world – which is certainly true. But this is not at all the same as an assertion that world saving as a whole cannot rise.
3. It is asserted on Michael Pettis &lt;a href=&quot;http://mpettis.com/2009/08/more-debate-about-the-validity-of-economic-data/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;last post&lt;/a&gt;,  in line with the present one and in greater detail, referring to the second quarter US GDP figures that: ‘ my main concern – no big surprise – was US consumption, which declined by more than GDP. ’ This makes two confusions. 
First it confuses personal consumption with total consumption. They are not the same. Total US consumption is comprised by personal consumption plus government consumption. Consumption in the US is not declining more than GDP , contrary to the post of Professor Pettis – on the contrary it is rising as a percentage of GDP. 
Between the first and second quarters of 2009, the period Professor Pettis refers to, US total consumption rose from 87.2% to 87.6% of GDP. Between the last quarter of 2007, that is before the financial crisis began to strike, and the second quarter of 2009 US consumption rose from 85.8% of GDP to 87.6%. Between the second quarter of 2008, the last before the opening of the entirely open financial crisis with the collapse of Lehman&#039;s, and the second quarter of 2009 US consumption rose from 87.0% to 87.6% of GDP. The trend of rising US consumption under the impact of the financial crisis is therefore clear.  
Second he fails to note that shifts in relative prices mean that although in volume terms US personal consumption fell more rapidly than GDP in the second quarter of 2009 (a decline of 1.2% compared to 1.0% for GDP) it increased as a percentage of GDP. From the point of view of global imbalances, that is the US balance of payments deficit, it is the proportion of GDP devoted to consumption which is determining and not movements in volume.
A much more detailed analysis of shifts in US consumption , and the breakdown of the rise in consumption between personal consumption and government consumption,  may be found&lt;a href=&quot;http://ablog.typepad.com/keytrendsinglobalisation/2009/08/the-real-reason-global-imbalances-have-declined-factual-economic-trends-in-the-us-and-china.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.
If the HTML works properly readers should be able to see the trend of rising consumption in the US in the graph that follows.
&lt;a href=&quot;http://ablog.typepad.com/.a/6a00e554717cc988330120a523f60f970c-pi&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;/a&gt;
4. Michael Pettis writes: ‘the imbalances have to be worked out one way or the other’. What is meant by this is that the US balance of payments deficit must decline and China’s balance of payments surplus must shrink. Indeed this is occurring. But it is happening &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; via US saving rising, as Micheal Pettis suggests, but by US investment falling even more rapidly than US saving, and by China’s investment rising towards its savings level. 
Michael Pettis is attempting to deal systematically with absolutely key issues of the world economy as well as China, and his open and frank framework for discussing these is admirable, and greatly to be supported. But his continued confusion of economic demand (which is the sum of consumption and investment) with consumption  (which is only one component of demand) leads to key errors in economics and therefore prognosis.  
In particular it is not true that US consumption is falling as a percentage of GDP – on the contraryit has been rising.In parallel US saving has been declining - the US balance of payments deficit has shrunk simply because US savings have fallen even more rapidly than US investment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am afraid Michael Pettis confuses domestic demand (which is the sum of domestic consumption plus investment) with domestic consumption – which is not the same thing. He therefore writes things which are not economically correct with the result that he comes to wrong conclusions. Specifically he writes above.<br />
1. ‘the trade surplus reflects the gap between what a country produces and what it consumes’. This is not true. The trade surplus (more correctly the balance of payments surplus but that is a side  issue) reflects the gap between what a country produces and what it consumes plus what it invests – that is Professor Pettis leaves out investment (which in China accounts for over 40% of GDP). Similarly the statement ‘as the leading trade deficit country, policies in the US that affect the gap between consumption and production will also determine the size of the US trade deficit’ is also not true. It is the gap between consumption plus investment, that is domestic demand, and production that will determine the size of the US trade deficit.<br />
2.Michael Pettis writes: ‘Rising savings in one part of the world, even assuming no change in global investment, requires declining savings somewhere else.’ This is not true – and is confused. It is entirely possible for world saving as a whole to rise – in which case world investment will also rise.   What I think Michael Pettis may be attempting to say is that an increase in the positive international transfer of savings (that is a balance of payments surplus) which occurs in one country must be met by an equivalent balance of payments deficit in the rest of the world – which is certainly true. But this is not at all the same as an assertion that world saving as a whole cannot rise.<br />
3. It is asserted on Michael Pettis <a href="http://mpettis.com/2009/08/more-debate-about-the-validity-of-economic-data/" rel="nofollow">last post</a>,  in line with the present one and in greater detail, referring to the second quarter US GDP figures that: ‘ my main concern – no big surprise – was US consumption, which declined by more than GDP. ’ This makes two confusions.<br />
First it confuses personal consumption with total consumption. They are not the same. Total US consumption is comprised by personal consumption plus government consumption. Consumption in the US is not declining more than GDP , contrary to the post of Professor Pettis – on the contrary it is rising as a percentage of GDP.<br />
Between the first and second quarters of 2009, the period Professor Pettis refers to, US total consumption rose from 87.2% to 87.6% of GDP. Between the last quarter of 2007, that is before the financial crisis began to strike, and the second quarter of 2009 US consumption rose from 85.8% of GDP to 87.6%. Between the second quarter of 2008, the last before the opening of the entirely open financial crisis with the collapse of Lehman&#8217;s, and the second quarter of 2009 US consumption rose from 87.0% to 87.6% of GDP. The trend of rising US consumption under the impact of the financial crisis is therefore clear.<br />
Second he fails to note that shifts in relative prices mean that although in volume terms US personal consumption fell more rapidly than GDP in the second quarter of 2009 (a decline of 1.2% compared to 1.0% for GDP) it increased as a percentage of GDP. From the point of view of global imbalances, that is the US balance of payments deficit, it is the proportion of GDP devoted to consumption which is determining and not movements in volume.<br />
A much more detailed analysis of shifts in US consumption , and the breakdown of the rise in consumption between personal consumption and government consumption,  may be found<a href="http://ablog.typepad.com/keytrendsinglobalisation/2009/08/the-real-reason-global-imbalances-have-declined-factual-economic-trends-in-the-us-and-china.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br />
If the HTML works properly readers should be able to see the trend of rising consumption in the US in the graph that follows.<br />
<a href="http://ablog.typepad.com/.a/6a00e554717cc988330120a523f60f970c-pi" rel="nofollow"></a><br />
4. Michael Pettis writes: ‘the imbalances have to be worked out one way or the other’. What is meant by this is that the US balance of payments deficit must decline and China’s balance of payments surplus must shrink. Indeed this is occurring. But it is happening <i>not</i> via US saving rising, as Micheal Pettis suggests, but by US investment falling even more rapidly than US saving, and by China’s investment rising towards its savings level.<br />
Michael Pettis is attempting to deal systematically with absolutely key issues of the world economy as well as China, and his open and frank framework for discussing these is admirable, and greatly to be supported. But his continued confusion of economic demand (which is the sum of consumption and investment) with consumption  (which is only one component of demand) leads to key errors in economics and therefore prognosis.<br />
In particular it is not true that US consumption is falling as a percentage of GDP – on the contraryit has been rising.In parallel US saving has been declining &#8211; the US balance of payments deficit has shrunk simply because US savings have fallen even more rapidly than US investment.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Whittaker</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/08/more-debate-about-the-validity-of-economic-data/comment-page-1/#comment-2737</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Whittaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 03:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=937#comment-2737</guid>
		<description>FYI: Our kids just returned to Shanghai (to their teaching jobs in an American run international elementary school) and say that several sites, including Facebook and this site (mpettis.com) have been blocked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYI: Our kids just returned to Shanghai (to their teaching jobs in an American run international elementary school) and say that several sites, including Facebook and this site (mpettis.com) have been blocked.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/08/more-debate-about-the-validity-of-economic-data/comment-page-1/#comment-2736</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 00:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=937#comment-2736</guid>
		<description>Forgive me for injecting perhaps a stupid question but I am struggling understand the income side of Chinese consumption; in essence the relationship between individual income and GDP. Individual income taxes in the MOF 2008 budget were projected to be 226 billion RMB.  The China IIT system is graduated with a quick deduction.  Assuming the average tax payer has an income of 10,000 RMB, the tax paid after the deduction would be 1,675RMB which works out to a 16% bracket.  If you assume just a 10% average effective tax individual tax rate, then the 226 billion RMB tax revenue suggests the individual&#039;s share of income is 2.26 trillion RMB, less than 10% of GDP.  

Even at a per capita household income of 10,000 RMB, that still means less than 50% of the approximately 30 trillion RMB GDP is attributed to individual income for 1.3 billion.  So where does the rest of the money go?  The tax based receipts of the government are no more than 6-7 trillion RMB.  Corporate income tax (25%) was to be 643 billion RMB in 2008, meaning a corporate income of 2.5 trillion RMB.

Am I omitting provincial and municipal government revenues?  SOE wealth creation?

While I don&#039;t mean to suggest a fudging of the numbers or that tax cheating is going on, I am truly trying to figure out where the roughly 30 trillion RMB GDP really goes.  If someone could point me to a website or study, I would appreciate it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forgive me for injecting perhaps a stupid question but I am struggling understand the income side of Chinese consumption; in essence the relationship between individual income and GDP. Individual income taxes in the MOF 2008 budget were projected to be 226 billion RMB.  The China IIT system is graduated with a quick deduction.  Assuming the average tax payer has an income of 10,000 RMB, the tax paid after the deduction would be 1,675RMB which works out to a 16% bracket.  If you assume just a 10% average effective tax individual tax rate, then the 226 billion RMB tax revenue suggests the individual&#8217;s share of income is 2.26 trillion RMB, less than 10% of GDP.  </p>
<p>Even at a per capita household income of 10,000 RMB, that still means less than 50% of the approximately 30 trillion RMB GDP is attributed to individual income for 1.3 billion.  So where does the rest of the money go?  The tax based receipts of the government are no more than 6-7 trillion RMB.  Corporate income tax (25%) was to be 643 billion RMB in 2008, meaning a corporate income of 2.5 trillion RMB.</p>
<p>Am I omitting provincial and municipal government revenues?  SOE wealth creation?</p>
<p>While I don&#8217;t mean to suggest a fudging of the numbers or that tax cheating is going on, I am truly trying to figure out where the roughly 30 trillion RMB GDP really goes.  If someone could point me to a website or study, I would appreciate it.</p>
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		<title>By: Houhui</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/08/more-debate-about-the-validity-of-economic-data/comment-page-1/#comment-2731</link>
		<dc:creator>Houhui</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 05:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=937#comment-2731</guid>
		<description>Sorry Mannfm, i think i posted the same article as you (although i couldn&#039;t see your comment when i did.) The Andy Xie article appeared on caijing (i gave the link above)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Mannfm, i think i posted the same article as you (although i couldn&#8217;t see your comment when i did.) The Andy Xie article appeared on caijing (i gave the link above)</p>
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		<title>By: Lemmiwinks</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/08/more-debate-about-the-validity-of-economic-data/comment-page-1/#comment-2730</link>
		<dc:creator>Lemmiwinks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 04:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=937#comment-2730</guid>
		<description>I dont understand how Andy Xie links dollar strength with Chinese liquidity.
I think the low loan deposit ratio he is referring to is not a consequence of dollar valuation but  comes from structure of the Chinese economy. The main reason being is that companies in China save way too much. This was even picked up in the latest issue of The Economist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dont understand how Andy Xie links dollar strength with Chinese liquidity.<br />
I think the low loan deposit ratio he is referring to is not a consequence of dollar valuation but  comes from structure of the Chinese economy. The main reason being is that companies in China save way too much. This was even picked up in the latest issue of The Economist.</p>
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