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	<title>Comments on: China’s September data suggest that the long-term overcapacity problem is only intensifying</title>
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	<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/10/china%e2%80%99s-september-data-suggest-that-the-long-term-overcapacity-problem-is-only-intensifying/</link>
	<description>China's financial and monetary links to the world</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:04:09 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Some useful posts for macro-theory &#171; Freethinking Economist</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/10/china%e2%80%99s-september-data-suggest-that-the-long-term-overcapacity-problem-is-only-intensifying/comment-page-2/#comment-4584</link>
		<dc:creator>Some useful posts for macro-theory &#171; Freethinking Economist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 14:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=1099#comment-4584</guid>
		<description>[...] must draw people&#8217;s attention to this blog about China&#8217;s financial markets, suggested by a commenter here. Surely China can&#8217;t suffer from both inflation and overcapacity? David Pilling in the FT [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] must draw people&#8217;s attention to this blog about China&#8217;s financial markets, suggested by a commenter here. Surely China can&#8217;t suffer from both inflation and overcapacity? David Pilling in the FT [...]</p>
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		<title>By: China Special (3): What’s up with all these commodity import? &#171; U.Pro.Fish</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/10/china%e2%80%99s-september-data-suggest-that-the-long-term-overcapacity-problem-is-only-intensifying/comment-page-2/#comment-4467</link>
		<dc:creator>China Special (3): What’s up with all these commodity import? &#171; U.Pro.Fish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 08:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=1099#comment-4467</guid>
		<description>[...] Pettis has wrote on Oct 16, 2009 (Orange: my added comment) According to the October 14 research report by Mark Williams, of Capital Economics, “We do not expect the trend to last. China’s recovery is being driven by investment, but the recent pace of commodity import growth has been much faster than justified by the rise in current demand.  Inventories of many metals have more than doubled since the start of the year (copper inventories are up 500%).” [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Pettis has wrote on Oct 16, 2009 (Orange: my added comment) According to the October 14 research report by Mark Williams, of Capital Economics, “We do not expect the trend to last. China’s recovery is being driven by investment, but the recent pace of commodity import growth has been much faster than justified by the rise in current demand.  Inventories of many metals have more than doubled since the start of the year (copper inventories are up 500%).” [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chinese rebalancing &#171; Lesmaes</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/10/china%e2%80%99s-september-data-suggest-that-the-long-term-overcapacity-problem-is-only-intensifying/comment-page-2/#comment-3636</link>
		<dc:creator>Chinese rebalancing &#171; Lesmaes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 19:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=1099#comment-3636</guid>
		<description>[...]  Michael Pettis had a great post yesterday, showing once again how China rebalancing is closer to a myth than reality, mostly because the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Michael Pettis had a great post yesterday, showing once again how China rebalancing is closer to a myth than reality, mostly because the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Raphael</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/10/china%e2%80%99s-september-data-suggest-that-the-long-term-overcapacity-problem-is-only-intensifying/comment-page-2/#comment-3569</link>
		<dc:creator>Raphael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>http://raphaelkahan.blogspot.com/2009/10/buiter-on-bubbles-and-china.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://raphaelkahan.blogspot.com/2009/10/buiter-on-bubbles-and-china.html" rel="nofollow">http://raphaelkahan.blogspot.com/2009/10/buiter-on-bubbles-and-china.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Rien Huizer</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/10/china%e2%80%99s-september-data-suggest-that-the-long-term-overcapacity-problem-is-only-intensifying/comment-page-2/#comment-3565</link>
		<dc:creator>Rien Huizer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 08:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=1099#comment-3565</guid>
		<description>Michael,

Great to see the comments working again, and great to see the hypothesis that led one to believe this to happen after the anniversary celebrations, confirmed.

The stockpiling of a voluminous and relatively inexpensive commodity like iron ore continues to puzzle though. Not quite your speculators assets and very high transaction costs when liquidating. Maybe some producers expect the gvt to ration iron ore imports in the future in order to force a long overdue consolidation and rationalization of the sector. In that case the marginal steelmakers would tend to import disproportionally.
Apart from speculative and strategic explanations (iron ore) , I believe that commodity imports have become a short term policy instrument, in order to manage the CA. Not quite sustainable though unless there is a world wide recovery, to which China&#039;s peculiar style of stimulus, as you have argued regularly, will contribute much less than the raw numbers would suggest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>Great to see the comments working again, and great to see the hypothesis that led one to believe this to happen after the anniversary celebrations, confirmed.</p>
<p>The stockpiling of a voluminous and relatively inexpensive commodity like iron ore continues to puzzle though. Not quite your speculators assets and very high transaction costs when liquidating. Maybe some producers expect the gvt to ration iron ore imports in the future in order to force a long overdue consolidation and rationalization of the sector. In that case the marginal steelmakers would tend to import disproportionally.<br />
Apart from speculative and strategic explanations (iron ore) , I believe that commodity imports have become a short term policy instrument, in order to manage the CA. Not quite sustainable though unless there is a world wide recovery, to which China&#8217;s peculiar style of stimulus, as you have argued regularly, will contribute much less than the raw numbers would suggest.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/10/china%e2%80%99s-september-data-suggest-that-the-long-term-overcapacity-problem-is-only-intensifying/comment-page-2/#comment-3560</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 00:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=1099#comment-3560</guid>
		<description>Dear Joe Shareholder,

Absolutely agree with the concept of free trade.  But trade is a two way street and China does a masterful job of talking the talk while avoiding walking the talk.  

Controlled exchange rates, arbitrary regulatory rules, inconsistent application of the law all are effective means of keeping foreign competitive products at bay.

This is not to say the US, the EU or the Aussies are clean either.  It&#039;s just that no country is more vocal than China about free trade while maintaining a system that stacks the deck against foreign firm.  

Not sure if this link still works (and you have to have a subscription china South Morning Post) but here is Shirley Yam&#039;s great column on the new China Antitrust law.  
http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2af62ecb329d3d7733492d9253a0a0a0/?vgnextoid=7ca8217311da2210VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&amp;ss=Columns&amp;s=Business

To summarize her point, while indigenous China mergers occur without contest, cases involving foreign firms get the attention.  Coca Cola/Huiyuan, Mitsubishi/Lucite, InBev/Annheuser Busch are the 3 cases that have resulted in Ministry of Commerce action.

Furthermore, China&#039;s domestic economy that does not operate in a market way with heavy government intervention in output pricing, capacity (expansion and contraction), employment, input pricing, etc...how can one ever hope that there will be a level playing field if government officials micromanage? 

Even if the CCP central committee wanted to promote free (let&#039;s say impartial) trade in the China markets, the fact is that the decisions that are critical to a successful product launch and business operation are often made by local city and provincial officials who usually have a different agenda.  Even supposed central regulatory bureaus like Ministry of Commerce, the CSRC and others have branches offices in various cities where the local officers do not administer the regulations consistently.

Of course, there are all very good, innocent explanations as to why China has these institutions and economic structure.  But the reality is that such structural controls can be used for perverse reasons as well...and they are.

The Economist had a good article called &quot;Impenetrable&quot; in its October 15th edition.  Here is an excerpt...
_____
Local officials go to great lengths to protect companies on their patch, often by giving them preferential access to land or credit, or by easing bureaucratic constraints for them. All the red tape would at least provide plenty of work for multinational law firms, were they permitted to employ Chinese lawyers--which they are not. 
_____

I continue to scratch my head as to how the WTO can assure fair trade with countries whose indigenous economy is not even close to a market system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Joe Shareholder,</p>
<p>Absolutely agree with the concept of free trade.  But trade is a two way street and China does a masterful job of talking the talk while avoiding walking the talk.  </p>
<p>Controlled exchange rates, arbitrary regulatory rules, inconsistent application of the law all are effective means of keeping foreign competitive products at bay.</p>
<p>This is not to say the US, the EU or the Aussies are clean either.  It&#8217;s just that no country is more vocal than China about free trade while maintaining a system that stacks the deck against foreign firm.  </p>
<p>Not sure if this link still works (and you have to have a subscription china South Morning Post) but here is Shirley Yam&#8217;s great column on the new China Antitrust law.<br />
<a href="http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2af62ecb329d3d7733492d9253a0a0a0/?vgnextoid=7ca8217311da2210VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&amp;ss=Columns&amp;s=Business" rel="nofollow">http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2af62ecb329d3d7733492d9253a0a0a0/?vgnextoid=7ca8217311da2210VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&amp;ss=Columns&amp;s=Business</a></p>
<p>To summarize her point, while indigenous China mergers occur without contest, cases involving foreign firms get the attention.  Coca Cola/Huiyuan, Mitsubishi/Lucite, InBev/Annheuser Busch are the 3 cases that have resulted in Ministry of Commerce action.</p>
<p>Furthermore, China&#8217;s domestic economy that does not operate in a market way with heavy government intervention in output pricing, capacity (expansion and contraction), employment, input pricing, etc&#8230;how can one ever hope that there will be a level playing field if government officials micromanage? </p>
<p>Even if the CCP central committee wanted to promote free (let&#8217;s say impartial) trade in the China markets, the fact is that the decisions that are critical to a successful product launch and business operation are often made by local city and provincial officials who usually have a different agenda.  Even supposed central regulatory bureaus like Ministry of Commerce, the CSRC and others have branches offices in various cities where the local officers do not administer the regulations consistently.</p>
<p>Of course, there are all very good, innocent explanations as to why China has these institutions and economic structure.  But the reality is that such structural controls can be used for perverse reasons as well&#8230;and they are.</p>
<p>The Economist had a good article called &#8220;Impenetrable&#8221; in its October 15th edition.  Here is an excerpt&#8230;<br />
_____<br />
Local officials go to great lengths to protect companies on their patch, often by giving them preferential access to land or credit, or by easing bureaucratic constraints for them. All the red tape would at least provide plenty of work for multinational law firms, were they permitted to employ Chinese lawyers&#8211;which they are not.<br />
_____</p>
<p>I continue to scratch my head as to how the WTO can assure fair trade with countries whose indigenous economy is not even close to a market system.</p>
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		<title>By: The &#8216;G-2&#8242; Leads the World onto an Economic Tightrope &#171; From The Top Down</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/10/china%e2%80%99s-september-data-suggest-that-the-long-term-overcapacity-problem-is-only-intensifying/comment-page-2/#comment-3559</link>
		<dc:creator>The &#8216;G-2&#8242; Leads the World onto an Economic Tightrope &#171; From The Top Down</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 22:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=1099#comment-3559</guid>
		<description>[...] the dollar, it will need to keep buying U.S. assets and thereby accumulating dollar reserves. And, as Professor Michael Pettis of Peking University effectively argues, so long as China continues to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the dollar, it will need to keep buying U.S. assets and thereby accumulating dollar reserves. And, as Professor Michael Pettis of Peking University effectively argues, so long as China continues to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: chindit13</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/10/china%e2%80%99s-september-data-suggest-that-the-long-term-overcapacity-problem-is-only-intensifying/comment-page-2/#comment-3558</link>
		<dc:creator>chindit13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=1099#comment-3558</guid>
		<description>A partial explanation for some of the commodity buildup has to do with production and purchase quota agreements signed into by Chinese mining firms in other countries (Asia, Africa).  Many of these contracts were signed during the peak of the commodity bubble, and production is only now coming on line.  That China might not have anything useful to do with the material right now does not free them from the contractual requirement of purchase.  It&#039;s a little more difficult to renege on an expensive mining operation than to do what the SOE&#039;s did with Goldman, Morgan et al on derivative-hedges-gone-wrong.  Failure to abide by the former mining contract would at least present the possibility of immediate nationalization and substantial loss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A partial explanation for some of the commodity buildup has to do with production and purchase quota agreements signed into by Chinese mining firms in other countries (Asia, Africa).  Many of these contracts were signed during the peak of the commodity bubble, and production is only now coming on line.  That China might not have anything useful to do with the material right now does not free them from the contractual requirement of purchase.  It&#8217;s a little more difficult to renege on an expensive mining operation than to do what the SOE&#8217;s did with Goldman, Morgan et al on derivative-hedges-gone-wrong.  Failure to abide by the former mining contract would at least present the possibility of immediate nationalization and substantial loss.</p>
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		<title>By: mannfm11</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/10/china%e2%80%99s-september-data-suggest-that-the-long-term-overcapacity-problem-is-only-intensifying/comment-page-2/#comment-3557</link>
		<dc:creator>mannfm11</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 07:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mpettis.com/?p=1099#comment-3557</guid>
		<description>Michael, I cannot say I can dispute your confusion.  I hold to the deflation idea mainly because I believe they have pushed credit as far as it can be pushed.  Being the US and Britain form much of the backbone of world credit creation and demand in the US is the backbone of the majority of export demand in the world, I sense that deflation is the direction.  On the contrary, it is quite possible the US could be looted to the point that the rest of the world would drop the dollar, which would cause worldwide bankruptcy.  

I have sensed for a few years there has been a corner in copper and it appears if this is true that it is being aided and abetted by Chinese hoarding.  Now would be the ultimate time for the cornered to get out and leave someone else holding the bag.  The collapse in homebuilding and commercial construction around the world has to have provided a huge hit to the copper business.  I sense China and India to some extent have pushed the idea of growth to the point beyond markets.  In the meantime, Wall Street, the US government and the Fed are set on destroying the US in order to save the equity of the banks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I cannot say I can dispute your confusion.  I hold to the deflation idea mainly because I believe they have pushed credit as far as it can be pushed.  Being the US and Britain form much of the backbone of world credit creation and demand in the US is the backbone of the majority of export demand in the world, I sense that deflation is the direction.  On the contrary, it is quite possible the US could be looted to the point that the rest of the world would drop the dollar, which would cause worldwide bankruptcy.  </p>
<p>I have sensed for a few years there has been a corner in copper and it appears if this is true that it is being aided and abetted by Chinese hoarding.  Now would be the ultimate time for the cornered to get out and leave someone else holding the bag.  The collapse in homebuilding and commercial construction around the world has to have provided a huge hit to the copper business.  I sense China and India to some extent have pushed the idea of growth to the point beyond markets.  In the meantime, Wall Street, the US government and the Fed are set on destroying the US in order to save the equity of the banks.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Shareholder</title>
		<link>http://mpettis.com/2009/10/china%e2%80%99s-september-data-suggest-that-the-long-term-overcapacity-problem-is-only-intensifying/comment-page-2/#comment-3556</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Shareholder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 16:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Chinese have several roadblocks to expansion looming ahead.  The Chinese economy is very robust right now, but they depend heavily on exports.  In a healthy global economy that&#039;s fine, but not in an unhealthy economy.  Right now protectionism is almost inevitable.  I work in the chemical industry and there are several chemicals I buy from China that have pending FTC anti-dumping lawsuits.  The FTC always sides with the US companies in these cases.  I&#039;m for US economic growth, but also believe free trade eliminates a lot of inefficiencies.  It forces US companies to compete internationally, and look for a competitive edge.  When you rely on protectionism to grow your business your business model has weaknesses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chinese have several roadblocks to expansion looming ahead.  The Chinese economy is very robust right now, but they depend heavily on exports.  In a healthy global economy that&#8217;s fine, but not in an unhealthy economy.  Right now protectionism is almost inevitable.  I work in the chemical industry and there are several chemicals I buy from China that have pending FTC anti-dumping lawsuits.  The FTC always sides with the US companies in these cases.  I&#8217;m for US economic growth, but also believe free trade eliminates a lot of inefficiencies.  It forces US companies to compete internationally, and look for a competitive edge.  When you rely on protectionism to grow your business your business model has weaknesses.</p>
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